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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 8:45:28 GMT
Post by jimbo on Nov 22, 2021 8:45:28 GMT
So there really is no point in me repeating the same argument. Yes there is. I need a reminder of what you might have said. And as far as me not having good morals, you are right. I am a pragmatist not a sap.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 8:53:11 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 22, 2021 8:53:11 GMT
Russia is a country of malicious air mongers. Putin is no different from his predecessors, he just is dealing with another internal and external world. Of course Putin is highly intelligent. Although I don't see him invent anything worthwhile, he is very good in strategical and operational things and is not concerned with standards we take for granted.
To understand Russia, you have go go back to your infant years and remember how you would deal with things when you were 4 or 5 years old.
An example of the Russian mentality is how in the seventies they had 1000's of cardbox tanks build and lined them up to fool the enemy about how well armed they were. The Russian 'spirit' in a nutshell.
They did miss out on the age of enlightenment.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 8:58:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 8:58:30 GMT
Russia is a country of malicious air mongers. Putin is no different from his predecessors, he just is dealing with another internal and external world. That's just not true, when did Gorbachev, for example, have anyone killed?
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 9:02:54 GMT
Post by jimbo on Nov 22, 2021 9:02:54 GMT
Russia is a country of malicious air mongers. Putin is no different from his predecessors, he just is dealing with another internal and external world. That's just not true, when did Gorbachev, for example, have anyone killed? Good point. I forgot about Gorby. Nonetheless, I think Putin isn't as bad, or isn't the threat our leaders and media - and you - are freaking out about. And it is naive to think our own leaders aren't ruthless from time to time. Assange comes to mind. Wait. Let me guess. You think Assange is getting what he deserves and it's because he supposedly got the DNC info from the RUSSIANS!!!
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 9:14:06 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 22, 2021 9:14:06 GMT
Russia is a country of malicious air mongers. Putin is no different from his predecessors, he just is dealing with another internal and external world. That's just not true, when did Gorbachev, for example, have anyone killed? I wasn't really counting Gorbachev. I mean, he's only been in office for a few years. But I do agree, he may have been the odd one out. There have been a number of inbetween popes. I see Putin more in the line of Lenin through to Khrushchev
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 9:15:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 9:15:47 GMT
That's just not true, when did Gorbachev, for example, have anyone killed? Good point. I forgot about Gorby. Nonetheless, I think Putin isn't as bad, or isn't the threat our leaders and media - and you - are freaking out about. And it is naive to think our own leaders aren't ruthless from time to time. Assange comes to mind. Wait. Let me guess. You think Assange is getting what he deserves and it's because he supposedly got the DNC info from the RUSSIANS!!! You're being an apologist for a guy who regularly has people killed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 9:21:28 GMT
That's just not true, when did Gorbachev, for example, have anyone killed? I wasn't really counting Gorbachev. I mean, he's only been in office for a few years. But I do agree, he may have been the odd one out. There have been a number of inbetween popes. I see Putin more in the line of Lenin through to Khrushchev He is more like Stalin. What I'm getting from you and Toby is a cynical acceptance that the only way to be a leader in Russia is to be a murderous tyrant. Not only is such a position morally empty, it's not even true. Russia could have gone another way, Putin was not a historical inevitability.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 9:24:32 GMT
Post by jimbo on Nov 22, 2021 9:24:32 GMT
Good point. I forgot about Gorby. Nonetheless, I think Putin isn't as bad, or isn't the threat our leaders and media - and you - are freaking out about. And it is naive to think our own leaders aren't ruthless from time to time. Assange comes to mind. Wait. Let me guess. You think Assange is getting what he deserves and it's because he supposedly got the DNC info from the RUSSIANS!!! You're being an apologist for a guy who regularly has people killed. Apologist. The fuck does that mean? Apologist. Jesus. Russians - otherwise know as a mass of apologists - regularly elect the guy in an election that can't be nearly as fucked up as the US's, and as my dad used to say about the Bodder System: he don't bodder me so I don't bodder him.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 9:48:24 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 22, 2021 9:48:24 GMT
I wasn't really counting Gorbachev. I mean, he's only been in office for a few years. But I do agree, he may have been the odd one out. There have been a number of inbetween popes. I see Putin more in the line of Lenin through to Khrushchev He is more like Stalin. What I'm getting from you and Toby is a cynical acceptance that the only way to be a leader in Russia is to be a murderous tyrant. Not only is such a position morally empty, it's not even true. Russia could have gone another way, Putin was not a historical inevitability. Not Putin so much was the inevitability, but a 'strong' man like him was and is. It's a country of loons. I am not saying it's their fault but we can see the reasons why that it has come to that. I have been many times in Russia and former Soviet states. Even if you talk to well educated people there, you can sense there's something 'wrong' in how off their ideas are about things that we view normal. Never mind the not well educated 90%. It's nearly as if they are immune to reason. A bit like our anti vaxers, and few few years back the yellow vests in France. More recent the Trumpeteers.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 10:47:14 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 22, 2021 10:47:14 GMT
They are themselves. Russia is a curious and strange place.
The notion that people born of another place should adhere or conform to western expectations is, frankly, somewhat arrogant.
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 22, 2021 10:51:01 GMT
What Putin does is not what's right for Russia. It's what's right for him, what ensures he keeps power.
I think some people are confusing the two
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 10:56:12 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 22, 2021 10:56:12 GMT
What I'm getting from you and Toby is a cynical acceptance that the only way to be a leader in Russia is to be a murderous tyrant. Not only is such a position morally empty, it's not even true. Russia could have gone another way, Putin was not a historical inevitability. There is no evidence of Russia "going another way". A country that has virtually no record of democratic institutions within a known lifetime is not magically going to see them work. There was no history of political parties, no record of elections, no record of constituencies or anything like that. The idea that Democracy would somehow magically "work" in a country where the notion of free political thought had all but evaporated and was ruthlessly suppressed for decades, or even centuries by a network of paid informers is just fantastically naive. This is where the West fails miserably, because it expects other countries population to suddenly have the same level of political awareness. You cannot expect a country's society to suddenly turn on a switch and accept "democracy" with open arms. Some people in Russia still love Stalin despite the absolute tragedy that he was, which gives you an indication of where they are. I have no love for Putin - he is a sinister man with a sinister agenda. He is, however, much better, I'd argue than the absolute nightmare that was the Soviet Union. Russia is a more open place than it was, it is wealthier, arguably a bit more tolerant and the truly pervasive corruption that was apparent in the Soviet Union is arguably not as bad as it was. People can do business there. There's a hell of a long way to go, but I'd say that Russia in 2021 is better than it was in 1981.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 10:58:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 22, 2021 10:58:57 GMT
They are themselves. Russia is a curious and strange place. The notion that people born of another place should adhere or conform to western expectations is, frankly, somewhat arrogant. We're talking about basic human rights, not eating McDonalds.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 10:59:49 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 22, 2021 10:59:49 GMT
I loved Gorby for this quote.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 11:26:17 GMT
Post by jimbo on Nov 22, 2021 11:26:17 GMT
We're talking about basic human rights, not eating McDonalds. Human rights? First thing in my mind is Julian Assange. Give me a minute I could list a dozen other individuals and groups in our society whose rights are violated. Let's see to our own nests and clean up our shit first. Maybe Putin is as corrupt as you say but his image is one of reasonableness, i.e., calling the US, etc., no matter the provocation, "partners". I appreciate that. Good manners go a long way in my book.
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