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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 11:29:09 GMT
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 22, 2021 11:29:09 GMT
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 12:19:44 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 12:19:44 GMT
What I'm getting from you and Toby is a cynical acceptance that the only way to be a leader in Russia is to be a murderous tyrant. Not only is such a position morally empty, it's not even true. Russia could have gone another way, Putin was not a historical inevitability. There is no evidence of Russia "going another way". A country that has virtually no record of democratic institutions within a known lifetime is not magically going to see them work. There was no history of political parties, no record of elections, no record of constituencies or anything like that. The idea that Democracy would somehow magically "work" in a country where the notion of free political thought had all but evaporated and was ruthlessly suppressed for decades, or even centuries by a network of paid informers is just fantastically naive. What 'evidence' do you want me to give you? There's only one world with one history. However some former Soviet countries have transitioned to democracy with some success. It's not complete fantasy to think that had a more capable and principled leader been in place other than Yeltsin, then Russia might have made a similar transition. I don't have time right now to go into detail about Putin, but you severely underestimate how brutal he is. That alone should prevent anyone from admiring him.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 12:22:54 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 22, 2021 12:22:54 GMT
They are themselves. Russia is a curious and strange place. The notion that people born of another place should adhere or conform to western expectations is, frankly, somewhat arrogant. I am not expecting that, merely saying you could spend any amount of time in Russia (or the former Soviet states) and spend your time mostly pointing and laughing if, at the end of the day, a regular life out there wasn't such an infinitely sad affair.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 12:25:04 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 22, 2021 12:25:04 GMT
What Putin does is not what's right for Russia. It's what's right for him, what ensures he keeps power. I think some people are confusing the two That's true but the Russians don't care about that at all. They are more like, 'way to go!' They say a people gets the leader they deserve. Without subscribing to that in general, in Russia's case specifically that is absolutely true.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 12:52:52 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 22, 2021 12:52:52 GMT
There is no evidence of Russia "going another way". A country that has virtually no record of democratic institutions within a known lifetime is not magically going to see them work. There was no history of political parties, no record of elections, no record of constituencies or anything like that. The idea that Democracy would somehow magically "work" in a country where the notion of free political thought had all but evaporated and was ruthlessly suppressed for decades, or even centuries by a network of paid informers is just fantastically naive. What 'evidence' do you want me to give you? There's only one world with one history. However some former Soviet countries have transitioned to democracy with some success. It's not complete fantasy to think that had a more capable and principled leader been in place other than Yeltsin, then Russia might have made a similar transition. I don't have time right now to go into detail about Putin, but you severely underestimate how brutal he is. That alone should prevent anyone from admiring him. Can you find evidence of "success" in former Soviet countries? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_IndexNone qualify as a full democracy. Most are authoritarian at best and only the Baltic states and Ukraine, which are more "european" in nature are "flawed democracies". The idea that someone would have been able to transition a country as vast and as hugely troubled as Russia at the end of the Soviet Union towards democracy is, frankly, a bit laughable. In time, it may very well be that Russia edges towards democracy. But there are many, many complex factors that make that country what it is and why it proves resistant to democracy.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 13:01:18 GMT
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 22, 2021 13:01:18 GMT
Indeed. But that doesn't justify the killing or poisoning of political opponents, controlling the media and denying fundamental human rights to LGBTQ individuals, does it? Or are all of those things quite acceptable BECAUSE RUSSIA?
Yet again you're exhibiting this weirdly cold, 'logical' approach towards Putin and how he can maintain his position.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 13:58:37 GMT
What 'evidence' do you want me to give you? There's only one world with one history. However some former Soviet countries have transitioned to democracy with some success. It's not complete fantasy to think that had a more capable and principled leader been in place other than Yeltsin, then Russia might have made a similar transition. I don't have time right now to go into detail about Putin, but you severely underestimate how brutal he is. That alone should prevent anyone from admiring him. Can you find evidence of "success" in former Soviet countries? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_IndexNone qualify as a full democracy. Most are authoritarian at best and only the Baltic states and Ukraine, which are more "european" in nature are "flawed democracies". The idea that someone would have been able to transition a country as vast and as hugely troubled as Russia at the end of the Soviet Union towards democracy is, frankly, a bit laughable. In time, it may very well be that Russia edges towards democracy. But there are many, many complex factors that make that country what it is and why it proves resistant to democracy. The link you provide also characterises the United States and France as "flawed democracies" so I wouldn't worry too much about some former Soviet republics failing to meet your own high standards. But anyway my comments have nothing to do with the historic difficulties of Russia, my point is Putin should be seen as a psychopathic tyrant and not as any kind of figure worthy of admiration. That is all. I'd like to know what you, Jimbo or any other Putin apologist make of this list. It is, unfortunately, highly selective and only represents a proportion of his crimes, but I don't want to be still writing this post this evening. Boris Nemstov - Politician assassinated opposite the Kremlin in 2015 after publically criticising Putin. Viktor Yushchenko - Ukraine politician poisoned in 2004 due to fears he would win the presidency and not be pro Moscow. Alexei Nalvany - Putin critic poisoned with a nerve agent in 2020 Anna Politkovskaya - Journalist murdered in Moscow in 2006 after revealing nefarious Russian activities in relation to Chechnya. Alexander Litvinenko - Whistle blower poisoned and died in London 2006. And so on..I do not mention the embezzlement, corruption, beatings, torture, false imprisonment. Yet some on here shrug their shoulders and say that's the way it's got to be, and actually it's quite admirable really. You cannot admire this man.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:05:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:05:05 GMT
Indeed. But that doesn't justify the killing or poisoning of political opponents, controlling the media and denying fundamental human rights to LGBTQ individuals, does it? Or are all of those things quite acceptable BECAUSE RUSSIA? Yet again you're exhibiting this weirdly cold, 'logical' approach towards Putin and how he can maintain his position. It doesn't Johnny , no. Then again you know LGBTQ rights are new in this democratic nation that is the UK.We don't kill political opponents we just quietly destroy them and the BBC and social media are declared politically biased and are need of reform ffs. The nation voted and demanded to stand alone away from Johnny foreigner and be great again. We are not in a position to take such a moral high ground we really ain't. Does it mean that Putin and co are alright, does it fuck. Is he a good old boy , nope. I don't see when the opportunity for Russia to go the other way actually occured G. It occurs to me that a democratic vote with different parties in Russia would end up with the kind of measures that see Putin in now. What a world.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:06:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:06:50 GMT
Can you find evidence of "success" in former Soviet countries? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_IndexNone qualify as a full democracy. Most are authoritarian at best and only the Baltic states and Ukraine, which are more "european" in nature are "flawed democracies". The idea that someone would have been able to transition a country as vast and as hugely troubled as Russia at the end of the Soviet Union towards democracy is, frankly, a bit laughable. In time, it may very well be that Russia edges towards democracy. But there are many, many complex factors that make that country what it is and why it proves resistant to democracy. The link you provide also characterises the United States and France as "flawed democracies" so I wouldn't worry too much about some former Soviet republics failing to meet your own high standards. But anyway my comments have nothing to do with the historic difficulties of Russia, my point is Putin should be seen as a psychopathic tyrant and not as any kind of figure worthy of admiration. That is all. I'd like to know what you, Jimbo or any other Putin apologist make of this list. It is, unfortunately, highly selective and only represents a proportion of his crimes, but I don't want to be still writing this post this evening. Boris Nemstov - Politician assassinated opposite the Kremlin in 2015 after publically criticising Putin. Viktor Yushchenko - Ukraine politician poisoned in 2004 due to fears he would win the presidency and not be pro Moscow. Alexei Nalvany - Putin critic poisoned with a nerve agent in 2020 Anna Politkovskaya - Journalist murdered in Moscow in 2006 after revealing nefarious Russian activities in relation to Chechnya. Alexander Litvinenko - Whistle blower poisoned and died in London 2006. And so on..I do not mention the embezzlement, corruption, beatings, torture, false imprisonment. Yet some on here shrug their shoulders and say that's the way it's got to be, and actually it's quite admirable really. You cannot admire this man. I don't see how you can admire him, true. In the same breath when and where and how could it or can it be different?
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:12:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:12:50 GMT
By not killing people perhaps? That might be a good start. If you start making excuses for murderers and human right abusers based on their countries troubled histories then you lose any kind of moral compass. The sanctity of human life becomes meaningless.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:23:23 GMT
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 22, 2021 14:23:23 GMT
I think they're saying that he has to kill people to stay in power
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:26:55 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:26:55 GMT
I think they're saying that he has to kill people to stay in power Yes. As if staying in power is any kind of achievement.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:32:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:32:34 GMT
By not killing people perhaps? That might be a good start. If you start making excuses for murderers and human right abusers based on their countries troubled histories then you lose any kind of moral compass. The sanctity of human life becomes meaningless. G, we just kid ourselves we are on the right side, with the moral compass quivering in the direction of Britain. Where have we been fighting for the last ten years and for what and for who ,because why. We don't kill our own just other people's problems and leave them, well we all know the answer to that one. I am gonna go all Jimbo now. I have told you before that I broadly agree and practice your general world view and politics. The thing is while we protest and fight for rights and howl at the state of other nations in our own backyard... The UK is a xenophobic ugly little country that will talk of war over fishing rights, it will go apeshit over people fleeing wars, it wants to see a GREAT Britain, it sees any other party apart from the Tories as snowflakes, co- operation with neighbours unnecessary, coalitions or joint armies as being against it's SOVEREIGN rights! In short you witness the slow decline into the madness of one party states everyday. I know you don't believe me. I have told you before that when I went into the murky world of the pro brexit Facebookers it became apparent that brexit was going to happen, Boris would be king. I agree with your opposition and I stand next to you ninety nine percent of the time. The people are turning to the right G . They don't care how it's done, what's theirs is theirs and they ain't sharing. You go and engage with far right Britain and the Facebook pages of the BBC . I gotta tell you man It is one of the reasons I am here in Greece. However in Greece despite the warm hospitality of these wonderful people is corruption, the Mafia fucking run Athens, incompetence and most of all Greek identity comes above all, erdogan is on the TV all the time (a bogyman) no money for infrastructure or the population welfare but not a peep when the govt spunks it's money on fighter jets and a month later a fifty percent rise in electricity.The racism and distrust of Albanians is shocking and black people, gays, don't even think about talking about those people having rights. I would never believe that populations would tolerate and welcome the firm hand and patriotic country first mentality to govern them, you know what? They fucking do.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:33:19 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:33:19 GMT
I think they're saying that he has to kill people to stay in power Yes. As if staying in power is any kind of achievement. That is such a silly statement G it really is.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:39:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:39:09 GMT
There isn't a utopia anywhere. All countries have their own forms of corruption and injustice, but that doesn't mean that they are all as bad as each other or that the concept of human rights should be thrown away as unachievable. Britain doesn't kill its political dissidents. There's no equivalency here with Russia.
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