Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:40:58 GMT
Yes. As if staying in power is any kind of achievement. That is such a silly statement G it really is. Putin staying in power is of no material benefit to the Russian people, it only benefits him and his cronies.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:43:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:43:45 GMT
There isn't a utopia anywhere. All countries have their own forms of corruption and injustice, but that doesn't mean that they are all as bad as each other or that the concept of human rights should be thrown away as unachievable. Britain doesn't kill its political dissidents. There's no equivalency here with Russia. It kills people all the time G . We just ripped up the middle East because it suits our fucking world view. Don't be so naive. Britain is drifting to the right and the opposition is dwindling before your eyes. There was a fantastic quote from some Tory this week ( forgive me I cannot remember who) He said that if we move to the centre too much then it will leave a gap on the right for someone else to fill. Isn't that fucking shocking?
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:46:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:46:54 GMT
That is such a silly statement G it really is. Putin staying in power is of no material benefit to the Russian people, it only benefits him and his cronies. And yet? There he is. McDonalds, stereos a little bit of bread in the shops. I sometimes think they would vote for Stalin if they could. They don't trust the west, why should they?
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:52:25 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 14:52:25 GMT
There isn't a utopia anywhere. All countries have their own forms of corruption and injustice, but that doesn't mean that they are all as bad as each other or that the concept of human rights should be thrown away as unachievable. Britain doesn't kill its political dissidents. There's no equivalency here with Russia. It kills people all the time G . We just ripped up the middle East because it suits our fucking world view. Don't be so naive. Britain is drifting to the right and the opposition is dwindling before your eyes. There was a fantastic quote from some Tory this week ( forgive me I cannot remember who) He said that if we move to the centre too much then it will leave a gap on the right for someone else to fill. Isn't that fucking shocking? It fights wars, sometimes extremely ill-advisedly, but that's not the same thing as killing or imprisoning your own citizens. Such "whataboutery" gets you nowhere.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 14:59:04 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 22, 2021 14:59:04 GMT
He is more like Stalin. What I'm getting from you and Toby is a cynical acceptance that the only way to be a leader in Russia is to be a murderous tyrant. Not only is such a position morally empty, it's not even true. Russia could have gone another way, Putin was not a historical inevitability. Not Putin so much was the inevitability, but a 'strong' man like him was and is. It's a country of loons. I am not saying it's their fault but we can see the reasons why that it has come to that. I have been many times in Russia and former Soviet states. Even if you talk to well educated people there, you can sense there's something 'wrong' in how off their ideas are about things that we view normal. Never mind the not well educated 90%. It's nearly as if they are immune to reason. A bit like our anti vaxers, and few few years back the yellow vests in France. More recent the Trumpeteers. They had how many years of living in a totalitarian nightmare? That has to do something to a society in a really fundamental way and to the psychology of people. From the peoples trust in authority to how they perceive reality itself. You feel they will never fully recover from the 20th century.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 15:04:13 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 15:04:13 GMT
It kills people all the time G . We just ripped up the middle East because it suits our fucking world view. Don't be so naive. Britain is drifting to the right and the opposition is dwindling before your eyes. There was a fantastic quote from some Tory this week ( forgive me I cannot remember who) He said that if we move to the centre too much then it will leave a gap on the right for someone else to fill. Isn't that fucking shocking? It fights wars, sometimes extremely ill-advisedly, but that's not the same thing as killing or imprisoning your own citizens. Such "whataboutery" gets you nowhere. Wow, total destruction of a country, whataboutery.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 15:05:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 15:05:16 GMT
Not Putin so much was the inevitability, but a 'strong' man like him was and is. It's a country of loons. I am not saying it's their fault but we can see the reasons why that it has come to that. I have been many times in Russia and former Soviet states. Even if you talk to well educated people there, you can sense there's something 'wrong' in how off their ideas are about things that we view normal. Never mind the not well educated 90%. It's nearly as if they are immune to reason. A bit like our anti vaxers, and few few years back the yellow vests in France. More recent the Trumpeteers. They had how many years of living in a totalitarian nightmare? That has to do something to a society in a really fundamental way and to the psychology of people. From the peoples trust in authority to how they perceive reality itself. You feel they will never fully recover from the 20th century. Fuck me Dougie we are still mourning the empire.
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 15:26:22 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 22, 2021 15:26:22 GMT
Not Putin so much was the inevitability, but a 'strong' man like him was and is. It's a country of loons. I am not saying it's their fault but we can see the reasons why that it has come to that. I have been many times in Russia and former Soviet states. Even if you talk to well educated people there, you can sense there's something 'wrong' in how off their ideas are about things that we view normal. Never mind the not well educated 90%. It's nearly as if they are immune to reason. A bit like our anti vaxers, and few few years back the yellow vests in France. More recent the Trumpeteers. They had how many years of living in a totalitarian nightmare? That has to do something to a society in a really fundamental way and to the psychology of people. From the peoples trust in authority to how they perceive reality itself. You feel they will never fully recover from the 20th century. Yes agreed, and from what went on before. Soon after the revolution life in Russia became as oppressed as under the Czars, the only difference being the Bolsheviks had taken charge.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 15:39:01 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 15:39:01 GMT
It fights wars, sometimes extremely ill-advisedly, but that's not the same thing as killing or imprisoning your own citizens. Such "whataboutery" gets you nowhere. Wow, total destruction of a country, whataboutery. Do you agree with the concept of "good" wars? Blair thought Iraq was one. He was wrong, very wrong in my view. But I don't think that is the same moral equivalency of what we're talking about here
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 16:00:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 16:00:54 GMT
Wow, total destruction of a country, whataboutery. Do you agree with the concept of "good" wars? Blair thought Iraq was one. He was wrong, very wrong in my view. But I don't think that is the same moral equivalency of what we're talking about here Oh it is G, it is the same. Bullying kids at school or your wife at home or fighting Spanish police in Benidorm. You are still a cunt.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 16:06:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 16:06:47 GMT
What's wrong with fighting the Spanish police?
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 16:11:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 16:11:16 GMT
What's wrong with fighting the Spanish police? Alright,alright,alright. I maybe went a little bit too far, sos.
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Sneelock
god
you're gonna break another heart
Posts: 8,546
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Russia
Nov 22, 2021 17:10:16 GMT
Post by Sneelock on Nov 22, 2021 17:10:16 GMT
I think Putin's "popularity" is sort of taken for granted. I mean, nobody thinks that last election was on the level. the coronavirus, natural gas crsis, pension reform.. He is saddled with enough negativity that the prospect of him in power another ten or fifteen years gets a big yawn. I mean, if he was REALLY all he-man popular wouldn't there be a roar of approval? what popular support he has seems pretty temperate and restrained in a lot of ways.
I think this might be part of why he's going on the offensive in the Ukraine again. I mean, when he sends troops somewhere his popularity goes way up. we all talk about how popular he is. I don't think he's all that popular. I like him even less than I already do when he's popular.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 8:16:39 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 8:16:39 GMT
Rights only have value if they can be enforced. They are absolutely pointless otherwise.
Saying that someone has a "basic human right" is only worthwhile if someone or something can enforce it.
Unfortunately and somewhat tragically, the intervention in Iraq was the peak of that sort of moral outlook. i.e "some people are being tyrannized in a country and we must save them so that they can enjoy basic human rights". The sad, tragic outcome of that intervention was a disaster, mostly because the Iraqis (well, deep down the Sh'ites and the Shia) didn't want to be "saved" or "rescued" by some foreign force that thought it was doing the right thing. They utterly rejected the West because they were a foreign body in their country that was telling them how to run their country.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't raise awareness of how people in other countries are treated, but we must be very careful about how the outcome of that attitude manifests itself. What happens to political opponents in Russia is downright appalling and the West should do all it can to raise awareness of that, but we must really sit tight and hope that a culture develops in the country that supports political opposition at some point. There is little else the West can do apart from sanctions.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 8:30:37 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2021 8:30:37 GMT
Rights only have value if they can be enforced. They are absolutely pointless otherwise. Saying that someone has a "basic human right" is only worthwhile if someone or something can enforce it. This doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.
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