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Post by DarknessFish on Nov 23, 2021 9:10:16 GMT
It's a pretty romantic view of the reasons for war in Iraq, too.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 9:56:00 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 9:56:00 GMT
This doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Saying that Vladimir in Siberia, who, say, might be gay, has basic human rights is all well and good, but it has absolutely no worth unless Vladimir's rights are protected or enforced by a legal body that has the ability to do such a thing. For example, Vladimir might be persecuted by the Russian Govt because he is gay. The West can say "Vlad has basic human rights that must be observed and protected", but the pragmatic reality is that Russia can ignore that because, well, what are the West going to do in reality? Therefore, a right can only be observed and used properly IF there is a legal body or force that can actually enforce it. If there is no force or body to do so, the phrase becomes meaningless and is usually trotted out by people who have little actual knowledge of how the world works.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 10:15:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2021 10:15:31 GMT
Got you. But really you're looking (again) unsympathetically and analytically at something which really is just about respect for other people.
This Vladimir character could be clubbed to death for his sexual orientation and I imagine you'd still say 'well Russia doesn't have the human rights that we enjoy - I'm afraid this sort of thing happens from time to time'.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 10:16:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2021 10:16:16 GMT
'knowledge of how the world works' my arse
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 10:40:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 10:40:38 GMT
This doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Saying that Vladimir in Siberia, who, say, might be gay, has basic human rights is all well and good, but it has absolutely no worth unless Vladimir's rights are protected or enforced by a legal body that has the ability to do such a thing. For example, Vladimir might be persecuted by the Russian Govt because he is gay. The West can say "Vlad has basic human rights that must be observed and protected", but the pragmatic reality is that Russia can ignore that because, well, what are the West going to do in reality? Therefore, a right can only be observed and used properly IF there is a legal body or force that can actually enforce it. If there is no force or body to do so, the phrase becomes meaningless and is usually trotted out by people who have little actual knowledge of how the world works. You're applying a kind of Catch 22 logic there. You're saying essentially there can be no such thing as 'human rights abuse' because they are in a country where human rights doesn't exist. This then creates a mandate for these abuses to continue because human rights never existed in the first place! Very helpful Toby.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 10:53:26 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 10:53:26 GMT
Well, yes, ultimately I'm afraid.
The concept of a "right" is a Western one. It is not observed in many countries, particularly in places like Indonesia, China or Russia.
Unless there is a global government that can enforce through the application of power to stop individual governments carrying out such abuses, then I'm afraid they are a flimsy construct.
As I said, when a country or force tries to engage with such a place that is carrying out such abuses, what realistically can they do? Some countries can be brought to heel, usually through sanctions of an economic nature. However, a place like China, which routinely abuses what we call human rights, is pretty much free to do what it wants due to the fact that, ultimately, the state of play is that powerful countries are not bound by such conventions because there is no such agency that can impose such a rule. Therefore the notion of a "human right" is sadly worthless.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 10:56:00 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 10:56:00 GMT
Got you. But really you're looking (again) unsympathetically and analytically at something which really is just about respect for other people. This Vladimir character could be clubbed to death for his sexual orientation and I imagine you'd still say 'well Russia doesn't have the human rights that we enjoy - I'm afraid this sort of thing happens from time to time'. It'd be terrible. And organisations and other countries, as they already do, try to raise awareness of this situation and bring pressure on the Government concerned to change its ways. The fact that such organisations are around makes this a good thing. But short of actually taking over the country, it is going to be consumed by realpolitik in many ways. I'm sure Putin has no real concern over what Amnesty International or Pride think to be honest.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 10:57:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 10:57:10 GMT
Well, yes, ultimately I'm afraid. The concept of a "right" is a Western one. It is not observed in many countries, particularly in places like Indonesia, China or Russia. Unless there is a global government that can enforce through the application of power to stop individual governments carrying out such abuses, then I'm afraid they are a flimsy construct. As I said, when a country or force tries to engage with such a place that is carrying out such abuses, what realistically can they do? Some countries can be brought to heel, usually through sanctions of an economic nature. However, a place like China, which routinely abuses what we call human rights, is pretty much free to do what it wants due to the fact that, ultimately, the state of play is that powerful countries are not bound by such conventions because there is no such agency that can impose such a rule. Therefore the notion of a "human right" is sadly worthless. It has it's own intrinsic worth. The problem with your argument is it's self defeating.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 10:59:45 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 10:59:45 GMT
China is carrying out what looks like a generational cleansing of the Uighur people. Can you let me know how, realistically, you'd go about trying to stop this.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 11:15:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 11:15:18 GMT
China is carrying out what looks like a generational cleansing of the Uighur people. Can you let me know how, realistically, you'd go about trying to stop this. Tell the world they are developing strains of mass destruction covids and go from there.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 12:14:06 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 23, 2021 12:14:06 GMT
Well, yes, ultimately I'm afraid. The concept of a "right" is a Western one. It is not observed in many countries, particularly in places like Indonesia, China or Russia. Unless there is a global government that can enforce through the application of power to stop individual governments carrying out such abuses, then I'm afraid they are a flimsy construct. As I said, when a country or force tries to engage with such a place that is carrying out such abuses, what realistically can they do? Some countries can be brought to heel, usually through sanctions of an economic nature. However, a place like China, which routinely abuses what we call human rights, is pretty much free to do what it wants due to the fact that, ultimately, the state of play is that powerful countries are not bound by such conventions because there is no such agency that can impose such a rule. Therefore the notion of a "human right" is sadly worthless. Our specific brand of it and it being applicable to everyone maybe but there are no societies that are unfamiliar with the concept of rights or that simply don't have them.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 12:18:00 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 23, 2021 12:18:00 GMT
China is carrying out what looks like a generational cleansing of the Uighur people. Can you let me know how, realistically, you'd go about trying to stop this. Disable them to carry out trade (imports and exports). See what happens. People say we are dependent on China and while that is true, the otherway around is true too. They need food, energy and currencies coming in.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 12:32:55 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 12:32:55 GMT
Ideally, yes, full economic sanctions are perhaps the most obvious way of being able to put pressure on China.
However, given that China's manufacturing capability pretty much runs the global economy, can you say realistically that would ever happen?
It would be like Italy asking the USA to stop racism in the Sixties when the US economy was pretty much the motor of the world economy and prosperity. Nice idea but pretty unlikely in reality.
I know I sound "coldly logical" in these conversations, but that's the reality - realpolitik is what runs the world, not some high falutin notion of rights.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 12:54:04 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 12:54:04 GMT
It isn't a high falutin idea for human rights. We hope to come to an agreement about the rules of saving the planet and we can honestly work towards the rights of people to be gay or follow Klingon ideals. Then again,something like freedom of movement should be a right too. How do you equate removing that right and dictating what other nations should be doing. How do you complain about the treatment of migrants when anything other than a hard line on migrants is needed to win power?
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 13:23:28 GMT
Post by jimbo on Nov 23, 2021 13:23:28 GMT
China is carrying out what looks like a generational cleansing of the Uighur people. Can you let me know how, realistically, you'd go about trying to stop this. More fake news here I'm afraid. I learned a while back from Max Blumenthal that the Uihger "genocide" was a an American-made myth but forgot the details, so to remind me I Duck Duck Go -ed "Blumenthal and Uigers" and came up with this video where Max pretty succinctly and rather scathingly lays out the truth of the matter. From 7:38 to 33:17 is the red meat.
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