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Post by tory on Dec 7, 2021 8:21:28 GMT
The thing about class in the UK is that, yes, in some way it does define us, but we're not as hung up on it as the Americans seem to think we are.
Definitions of society are useful. The idea of a "classless" society is a nice one, but it will never exist. We, as humans, are drawn towards classifications and hierarchies, because, ultimately, we function in them in a better way than we do without them. If there was no class, people would scramble to find some sort of identity for themselves and I suspect we would probably be in a Hobbesian nightmare.
The book Sapiens, which has some useful thoughts, talks about how humans co-operate in huge numbers because we are able to construct mythical narratives which help us work together. Chimpanzees, whose structural capacity to co-operate exists at a level of around 50-70, cannot do this. Any more and they splinter into warring factions. Class and designations are all part of this.
India, the most populous country in the world, has an extremely rigid and hierarchical society because there are so many people. I suspect that America itself will become more and more hidebound to class as it grows and grows.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 7, 2021 12:48:50 GMT
The old man was a scaffolder, my Mum a cleaner. I' m the first member of my family to attend university and my Grandfather came from North East Scotland chookter stock and worked in the stills.
I earn semi-decent money - above the national average but not by that much - and am classed as a "professional" person. I have my own 2 bedroom flat and culturally I guess my taste in movies and music is solidly middle class. And yet, when I'm around people born into the middle class I feel there is quite a profound difference between me and them, not just in sensibilities like sense of humour and how we present ourselves (the middle class are all about "face") but also attitudes and beliefs that define us. This is where the demarcation is for me and I think these days the middle class are as defined by strongly different cultural attitudes, beliefs and a vision more than anything which is why focusing on earnings or what car you drive is misleading and out of date. To use two examples, the ex-lasses step dad is very middle class....went to private school, travels a lot, lives in Marchmont, hangs out with solidly middle class people, very middle class culturally whereas the old man is working class, not educated but self educated, has travelled a lot as a young man but in the navy etc. The middle class vision, that the former believes in is a global, internationalist one. He was strongly Remain and he is very, shall we say, soft liberal in his outlook....very pro-immigration, very pro-welfare state, trying to be nice to everyone and generally awfully nice to the point where you feel he doesn't express what he truly feels therefore there is a degree of strong social norms at work whereby saying the "wrong" thing maybe inhibits him. That politeness to the point of blandness thing. You know the type. The old man is quite different. He's very travelled but he is very Scottish and British in his outlook. I don't think he voted in the EU referendum but I suspect he would have voted Leave as he is not very impressed with the EU and can be quite hostile towards them. He is open to immigration but feels the country has changed too much and not necessarily for the better. He cannot stand dole scroungers who he sees as living off the state and is a very self reliant, intensely hard working man (he's 77 and still does hundreds of sit ups everyday lol) who believes we have gone too "soft" as a country. Now him and my exes step dad only met a few times but got on well because the old man can get on with anyone but I know if we has all sit down and started talking about the world and all that shit these differences would come to the fore and I suspect some of his opinions would make some uncomfortable and would be seen as being "old fashioned". He is straight talking and earthy in a way that the middle class aren't imo. He is not restrained by the social norms and conventions in the same way at all, and neither am I. That's a big difference between the two groups in my experience but...the visions these days are quite different too as are their accompanying attitudes and beliefs. I think that's what really defines this stuff now.
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Post by tory on Dec 7, 2021 13:00:23 GMT
I'm lower middle-class in origin and my mother came from rural working class stock, but I have always found it difficult or uncomfortable around working-class people. I feel very much that "I'm not one of them" and my accent, which is very cultivated south-east counties in tone, sets me apart from the off. I'm called Toby for fuck's sake. I probably much feel more inclined now to get along rather than, say, 30 years ago when I would argue I had something of a disdain for the working class, probably hugely influenced by my mother's own snobbery. I never forget my mother refusing to allow a certain boy I hung around with down the park into the house because he was "an oik". That sort of attitude (even though she was working class in origin herself) is difficult to disassociate oneself from if its ingrained at home.
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Dec 7, 2021 13:12:46 GMT
Oh the middle class dislike the working class and totally look down on them. There is a very obvious prejudice there and always has been. Didn't Orwell talk about that?
These days they are too self-aware to indulge in the kind of ugly, obvious prejudice ("ooo look at their clothes") because that wouldn't look too good and they are all about how they look so instead they exhibit that prejudice through their beliefs and shared vision and in how they ultimately judge the working classes. So Leavers, i.e. the unwashed masses, were basically backwards, uncultured bigots etc. Same with the culture stuff. It's prejudice and hostility masquerading as superior virtue and values that they believe they need to impose on us heathens. They really do think they are there to Lead Us.
Arseholes. The older I get the more I think these idiots are the real problem in our society.
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Post by oleandermedian on Dec 10, 2021 17:31:02 GMT
I find those “markers” of class interesting.
If you squeeze ketchup all over your chips – you’re working class If you put a dollop of ketchup beside your chips – you’re middle class If you don’t have ketchup – you’re upper class If you don’t have ketchup or chips either – you’re the Duke of fucking Westminster
etc.
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Post by blue on Dec 10, 2021 17:56:40 GMT
Ketchup my arse, chips with salt and vinegar is the height of proletarian cuisine.
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Post by oleandermedian on Dec 10, 2021 18:04:38 GMT
So Leavers, i.e. the unwashed masses, were basically backwards, uncultured bigots etc. Same with the culture stuff. It's prejudice and hostility masquerading as superior virtue and values that they believe they need to impose on us heathens. They really do think they are there to Lead Us. Arseholes. The older I get the more I think these idiots are the real problem in our society. What is it with some Leavers? Still smarting from victory five years later. This working class = Leave, middle class = Remain stuff is a load of old bollocks.
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