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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 13:35:52 GMT
Where's that Walt Disney film where Donald duck proves that Hitler didn't kill any Jews ? Huey duey and Louie do that health camp not death camp song. Ffs Jimbo.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 14:12:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 14:12:27 GMT
China is carrying out what looks like a generational cleansing of the Uighur people. Can you let me know how, realistically, you'd go about trying to stop this. I don't know, but it probably wouldn't be by saying 'As China has no human rights, then the Uighur people don't have any rights to take away, so let's just accept it..'.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 14:39:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2021 14:39:10 GMT
China is carrying out what looks like a generational cleansing of the Uighur people. Can you let me know how, realistically, you'd go about trying to stop this. More fake news here I'm afraid. I learned a while back from Max Blumenthal that the Uihger "genocide" was a an American-made myth but forgot the details, so to remind me I Duck Duck Go -ed "Blumenthal and Uigers" and came up with this video where Max pretty succinctly and rather scathingly lays out the truth of the matter. From 7:38 to 33:17 is the red meat. FUCK OFF JIM
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 14:43:44 GMT
Post by jimbo on Nov 23, 2021 14:43:44 GMT
Where's that Walt Disney film where Donald duck proves that Hitler didn't kill any Jews ? Huey duey and Louie do that health camp not death camp song. Ffs Jimbo. Grow up. An adult is able to hear new evidence and change their thinking. This video is good explanation of what is really going on in the Uihger region. The US has been trying to destabilize China - and Russia and Venezuela and Bolivia and any other country that doesn't want to play by the US's rules forever. By poisoning China's reputation and invoking "genocide", which reminds passive news consumers of the the very real Holocaust, they strike a blow against an enemy to the American agenda. To prove Max wrong how about posting some photographic or video evidence of the genocide in Xinjiang. I already Googled Uihger genocide images and got this page. www.google.com/search?q=xinjiang+genocide&client=firefox-b&biw=1376&bih=731&tbm=isch&ei=k_ycYY-DBbHomAXi26LwDw&start=0&sa=N Good luck finding one. See, you have to realize that we are in a golden age of propaganda and we are bombarded with it on many topics which are dear to the "elite". The fuck does what Russia or China does or doesn't do within their own borders have to do with me or you. Nothing. At. All.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 14:45:28 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 14:45:28 GMT
We don't accept it. But that's the harsh reality of the situation.
We can put pressure on China to change its ways in the hope that it listens, but due to China's size and agency, it is unfortunately unlikely that we can do much about it.
My general perspective here is that there is always something awfully tragic going on in the world. That is the way of the world and the nature of humans. The fact that we have become so inter-connected makes it worse - we are made aware of tragic injustices on a daily basis, which seems to make it like a sisphyean issue. Furthermore, the evidence seems to suggest that "intervention" never really seems to work in any real, lasting way and that it is "better" in some ways for the country itself to "sort itself out", as long as it doesn't dissolve into chaos and affect other countries. It is better, to paraphrase Rumsfeld, for there to be an "unknown known" as I think Putin is for example, rather than an "unknown unknown", which essentially is what Al-Qaeda and ISIS are. The irony of Rumsfeld saying that is not lost on me.
The actual fact is that, on the whole, when you compare now to say, the 60's and 70s, when there were far more tyrannous and barbarous regimes across places like Asia, Africa, South America and the Middle East, there is a general level of prosperity enabled by globalisation and a sense that despotic regimes won't last. In general, they don't - because ruling by fear and tyranny doesn't usually work in the long run. Whether that applies to China and Russia I don't know - purely because these are vast countries and much of their population seems to accept totalitarian rule as the least worst option.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 14:54:02 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 14:54:02 GMT
An analogy to me might be the family across the road that is a nightmare on a daily basis. You can try to stop it, but ultimately, it is more likely that by intervening you are probably going to make it worse, at least on a short-term basis. You might be physically attacked for example, or you might suffer their wrath and be a target for abuse on an ongoing basis. The effects of your intervention are probably unlikely to have any real effect on their behaviour. What they do not want is the humiliation of being told how awful they are and how they should be living their lives.
As long as what they do does not interfere with you in a significant basis, you sort of have to endure it until they manage to sort it out. They may never sort it out tragically, but the reality of an intervention on "your terms" is unlikely to have a good outcome. The state, if a crime has been committed, may intervene to sort out the issue on a long-term basis.
When you extrapolate that situation to the world, the fact is that there is no "state" in any meaningful situation, other than major actors such as the US or China, where that sort of intervention can have any impact, and often results in a tragic outcome.
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Deleted
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 14:56:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 14:56:49 GMT
That last sentence is very blithe Toby. It is virtually impossible for any pro democracy movement to form in China currently because its authoritarian stronghold is so strong and all encompassing over people's lives. Therefore the lack of opposition or pro democracy movements should not be taken as evidence of the blind acquiescence of its people.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 15:08:04 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 15:08:04 GMT
I did say "much". Tianamen was an obvious example of huge unrest, and there have been notable examples of more recent unrest across some cities, and of course Hong Kong. Nothing is set in stone either - the Soviet Union to me seemed permanent back in the eighties but collapsed like a pack of cards. China may have "democracy" or it may, in all likelihood, have its own form of evolved government.
I firmly believe that countries have political cultures which adhere to their history, language and institutions. Russia's government culture is one of strong man politicians (all the way back to Ivan the Terrible), empire construction (Catherine the Great, Alexander, Stalin, Putin), secret police (all the way back to the Cheka) and lack of political opposition. China, similarly, has a political and bureaucratic culture that goes back thousands of years and is still evident today.
Here in the West we sort of arrogantly believe that "democracy" will evolve (itself a sort of Darwinian idea) out of authoritarianism. We think that Democracy is the best form of government because, well, it seems self-evident to us that is the case. In some instances that has happened - Japan and South Korea are examples of successful Asian countries that "embraced" these systems, but they have been helped by significant post-war US presence that took advantage of destroyed countries to make it work.
I don't personally see that "democracy" seed working in either China or Russia. Their systems of government will change in their own way, and in many ways there are aspects that won't change.
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Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2021 15:19:06 GMT
Toby yet again has managed to steer the discussion from 'I admire Putin' (which elicited the usual dismay) to 'it's terrible but there's nothing we can do' via 'how arrogant the West is in assuming we can impose democracy on other nation states'.
We always end up with these history lessons, because Toby doesn't believe in having a go at murderers. In some countries it's 'just a tradition'.
Hey ho
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 23, 2021 15:34:48 GMT
I think John should ask some of his CHINESE STUDENTS about this shit.
"Oi, arseholes, do you want a blinkin democracy or what?"
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 15:41:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2021 15:41:46 GMT
I saw some CY TWOMBLY in Rome and got in touch with one of my Chinese students who'd written about him over summer, just to say hi and send her a photo of the 'painting'.
I think if young Chinese people can dig CY then maybe they're getting closer to the kind of tolerance we 'enjoy' in the West
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 15:50:27 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 23, 2021 15:50:27 GMT
But they are a tiny minority, most are never exposed to the West except through their state media. Cultures have different ways of doing things though, different beliefs, different values, different systems. The individualism of the west seems anathema to the Chinese.
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Russia
Nov 23, 2021 15:58:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 23, 2021 15:58:14 GMT
aye
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 16:21:20 GMT
But they are a tiny minority, most are never exposed to the West except through their state media. Cultures have different ways of doing things though, different beliefs, different values, different systems. The individualism of the west seems anathema to the Chinese. There's a hell of a lot of Chinese students studying in the west though. They are being exposed to new ideas, ways of living, seeds are being planted. I'm sure that will manifest itself in some way when these students start to assume positions of power and influence in 25 year's time. That's when things might change. We have a long wait!
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Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 23, 2021 16:26:00 GMT
Imagine if in 50 years time there was a fucking statue of John Coan in Beijing.
"this statue honours the teachers of the West who in their wisdom helped liberate the people of China from tyranny!"
(I was going to write that in a comedy Chinese accent but thought better of it)
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