|
Russia
Nov 23, 2021 16:37:56 GMT
Post by Half Machine Lipschitz on Nov 23, 2021 16:37:56 GMT
But they are a tiny minority, most are never exposed to the West except through their state media. Cultures have different ways of doing things though, different beliefs, different values, different systems. The individualism of the west seems anathema to the Chinese. There's a hell of a lot of Chinese students studying in the west though. They are being exposed to new ideas, ways of living, seeds are being planted. I'm sure that will manifest itself in some way when these students start to assume positions of power and influence in 25 year's time. That's when things might change. We have a long wait! Or they're being sent to "re-education camps" like Russian soldiers returning from the western front in WWII.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Russia
Nov 23, 2021 17:45:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2021 17:45:00 GMT
Imagine if in 50 years time there was a fucking statue of John Coan in Beijing. "this statue honours the teachers of the West who in their wisdom helped liberate the people of China from tyranny!" (I was going to write that in a comedy Chinese accent but thought better of it) They'll change The National Anthem to Psychotic Reaction.
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 23, 2021 17:49:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by cousinlou on Nov 23, 2021 17:49:25 GMT
We don't accept it. But that's the harsh reality of the situation. We can put pressure on China to change its ways in the hope that it listens, but due to China's size and agency, it is unfortunately unlikely that we can do much about it. My general perspective here is that there is always something awfully tragic going on in the world. That is the way of the world and the nature of humans. The fact that we have become so inter-connected makes it worse - we are made aware of tragic injustices on a daily basis, which seems to make it like a sisphyean issue. Furthermore, the evidence seems to suggest that "intervention" never really seems to work in any real, lasting way and that it is "better" in some ways for the country itself to "sort itself out", as long as it doesn't dissolve into chaos and affect other countries. It is better, to paraphrase Rumsfeld, for there to be an "unknown known" as I think Putin is for example, rather than an "unknown unknown", which essentially is what Al-Qaeda and ISIS are. The irony of Rumsfeld saying that is not lost on me. The actual fact is that, on the whole, when you compare now to say, the 60's and 70s, when there were far more tyrannous and barbarous regimes across places like Asia, Africa, South America and the Middle East, there is a general level of prosperity enabled by globalisation and a sense that despotic regimes won't last. In general, they don't - because ruling by fear and tyranny doesn't usually work in the long run. Whether that applies to China and Russia I don't know - purely because these are vast countries and much of their population seems to accept totalitarian rule as the least worst option. While I don’t totally disagree it makes me wonder. Do you think there are people on the other side of the fence able and/or capable to have such a matter of factly stance?
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 23, 2021 18:25:16 GMT
Post by tory on Nov 23, 2021 18:25:16 GMT
You mean on the Russia/China side?
I think the Chinese see things very differently from us. It is worthwhile remembering that, as a whole, the Chinese have been a "superior" civilisation for two millennia. They had an aberrant hiccup for around 200 years, but the growth of China, particularly in the last two decades, is probably seen as a "return" to normality rather than them suddenly being a developed nation. I would hazard a guess that most Chinese people don't see themselves in the way we tend to see them. Up until the Industrial Revolution the Chinese and their culture were, ultimately, probably superior to the West in most ways. The growth of Europe and the West via the Industrial Revolution, the growth of Modernity and Individualism caught the Chinese flat-footed and they struggled to adjust until now.
I would suspect that the Russians see things very matter of factly. Theirs is not a culture of utopia (despite the Soviet intent) nor is it one of progressivism. The Russians are enigmatic and see the world very differently to everyone - particularly as they have such a vast country. I suspect that being "Russian" depends on where you live to be honest. A Siberian would probably have a very different worldview to someone from St Petersburg.
These are not cultures of "rights" and "the fellow man". Rousseau never managed to make much of an impact on them deep down - the Soviet dream I don't think ever made much of an impact on the ordinary Russian.
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 23, 2021 23:21:51 GMT
Post by jimbo on Nov 23, 2021 23:21:51 GMT
But they are a tiny minority, most are never exposed to the West except through their state media. Wrong. Before the scamdemic Japan was loaded with Chinese tourists with more and more on the way. IMO I attribute China's current wave of modernization to so many seeing it up close.
|
|
Sneelock
god
you're gonna break another heart
Posts: 8,546
|
Russia
Nov 23, 2021 23:30:04 GMT
Post by Sneelock on Nov 23, 2021 23:30:04 GMT
Hey Jimbo, can you hold my GUM for me? thanks. I'll finish chewing it later.
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 24, 2021 8:29:18 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 24, 2021 8:29:18 GMT
You mean on the Russia/China side? I think the Chinese see things very differently from us. It is worthwhile remembering that, as a whole, the Chinese have been a "superior" civilisation for two millennia. They had an aberrant hiccup for around 200 years, but the growth of China, particularly in the last two decades, is probably seen as a "return" to normality rather than them suddenly being a developed nation. I would hazard a guess that most Chinese people don't see themselves in the way we tend to see them. Up until the Industrial Revolution the Chinese and their culture were, ultimately, probably superior to the West in most ways. The growth of Europe and the West via the Industrial Revolution, the growth of Modernity and Individualism caught the Chinese flat-footed and they struggled to adjust until now. I would suspect that the Russians see things very matter of factly. Theirs is not a culture of utopia (despite the Soviet intent) nor is it one of progressivism. The Russians are enigmatic and see the world very differently to everyone - particularly as they have such a vast country. I suspect that being "Russian" depends on where you live to be honest. A Siberian would probably have a very different worldview to someone from St Petersburg. These are not cultures of "rights" and "the fellow man". Rousseau never managed to make much of an impact on them deep down - the Soviet dream I don't think ever made much of an impact on the ordinary Russian. I think the Chinese see things very differently from us. It is worthwhile remembering that, as a whole, the Chinese have been a "superior" civilisation for two millennia. They had an aberrant hiccup for around 200 years, but the growth of China, particularly in the last two decades, is probably seen as a "return" to normality rather than them suddenly being a developed nation. I would hazard a guess that most Chinese people don't see themselves in the way we tend to see them. Up until the Industrial Revolution the Chinese and their culture were, ultimately, probably superior to the West in most ways. The growth of Europe and the West via the Industrial Revolution, the growth of Modernity and Individualism caught the Chinese flat-footed and they struggled to adjust until now.In what way were they superior? It's a story they like to float that finally China is moving back to its natural position of superiority. The past 2 hundred years, in their eyes, has been an accident in history. the Soviet dream I don't think ever made much of an impact on the ordinary Russian.
Talk to Russians or Ukrainians that were born and raised during communism and ask them if they would like to go back to that. An overwhelming majority will say they would.
|
|
|
Post by DarknessFish on Nov 24, 2021 9:03:39 GMT
Wrong. Before the scamdemic If you're going to keep posting like this, you might as well fuck off now. Just saying, we're not morons, people have lost loved ones, FUCK OFF with your bullshit.
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 24, 2021 9:10:09 GMT
via mobile
Post by oh oooh on Nov 24, 2021 9:10:09 GMT
Talk to Russians or Ukrainians that were born and raised during communism and ask them if they would like to go back to that. An overwhelming majority will say they would. I know you hear surprising statistics but I can't imagine an overwhelming majority would go back. From my experience in Central Europe you tend to find around 10% support for the commies today - a bit higher in some rural areas. Still very much a minority
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 24, 2021 9:41:38 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 24, 2021 9:41:38 GMT
Talk to Russians or Ukrainians that were born and raised during communism and ask them if they would like to go back to that. An overwhelming majority will say they would. I know you hear surprising statistics but I can't imagine an overwhelming majority would go back. From my experience in Central Europe you tend to find around 10% support for the commies today - a bit higher in some rural areas. Still very much a minority I am sure they could do without the commies but I meant life during communism. What we sometimes overlook is the sense of community it created. People had to hussle to get sugar, salt, flour etc which meant you really couldn't be too solitary as you depended on the community for that. But also, don't forget free school, healthcare and the likes. Regular people didn't have that much to do with the sinister sides of communism. There was a wider feeling of all being in the same boat.
|
|
rayge
Administrator
Invisible
Posts: 8,790
Member is Online
|
Post by rayge on Nov 24, 2021 9:43:37 GMT
Wrong. Before the scamdemic If you're going to keep posting like this, you might as well fuck off now. Just saying, we're not morons, people have lost loved ones, FUCK OFF with your bullshit. You've been warned about this, Jim. Stop it.
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 24, 2021 9:50:02 GMT
Post by Reactionary Rage on Nov 24, 2021 9:50:02 GMT
You mean on the Russia/China side? I think the Chinese see things very differently from us. It is worthwhile remembering that, as a whole, the Chinese have been a "superior" civilisation for two millennia. They had an aberrant hiccup for around 200 years, but the growth of China, particularly in the last two decades, is probably seen as a "return" to normality rather than them suddenly being a developed nation. I would hazard a guess that most Chinese people don't see themselves in the way we tend to see them. Up until the Industrial Revolution the Chinese and their culture were, ultimately, probably superior to the West in most ways. The growth of Europe and the West via the Industrial Revolution, the growth of Modernity and Individualism caught the Chinese flat-footed and they struggled to adjust until now. I would suspect that the Russians see things very matter of factly. Theirs is not a culture of utopia (despite the Soviet intent) nor is it one of progressivism. The Russians are enigmatic and see the world very differently to everyone - particularly as they have such a vast country. I suspect that being "Russian" depends on where you live to be honest. A Siberian would probably have a very different worldview to someone from St Petersburg. These are not cultures of "rights" and "the fellow man". Rousseau never managed to make much of an impact on them deep down - the Soviet dream I don't think ever made much of an impact on the ordinary Russian. I think the Chinese see things very differently from us. It is worthwhile remembering that, as a whole, the Chinese have been a "superior" civilisation for two millennia. They had an aberrant hiccup for around 200 years, but the growth of China, particularly in the last two decades, is probably seen as a "return" to normality rather than them suddenly being a developed nation. I would hazard a guess that most Chinese people don't see themselves in the way we tend to see them. Up until the Industrial Revolution the Chinese and their culture were, ultimately, probably superior to the West in most ways. The growth of Europe and the West via the Industrial Revolution, the growth of Modernity and Individualism caught the Chinese flat-footed and they struggled to adjust until now.In what way were they superior? It's a story they like to float that finally China is moving back to its natural position of superiority. The past 2 hundred years, in their eyes, has been an accident in history. Were they not more advanced up to a certain point before Europe basically took over? We were behind the curve up until the giant leap forward with the renaissance etc? I may be wrong but it's my understanding that China went a bit insular at some point and it harmed their development as a civilisation.
|
|
|
Russia
Nov 24, 2021 12:15:27 GMT
Post by cousinlou on Nov 24, 2021 12:15:27 GMT
Were they not more advanced up to a certain point before Europe basically took over? We were behind the curve up until the giant leap forward with the renaissance etc? I may be wrong but it's my understanding that China went a bit insular at some point and it harmed their development as a civilisation. I don't know if they were but if they were in what respect? Where are the Chinese Rembrands, the Einsteins, the Beethovens? Or pre renaissance, The Aristotles, the Platos, or the mathematicians?
|
|
|
Post by oh oooh on Nov 24, 2021 12:17:08 GMT
Inventions. Paper, china, fireworks, all that stuff. Tea. Printing. 12th century.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 13:34:50 GMT
They invented the 12th century? Never knew that. Nail bars, housecoats , espadrilles and hair extensions are all theirs as well. I am surprised you didn't mention their CUISINE Johnny.
|
|